Composing : What is a realistic budget percentage one needs for music composition? by Beth Fox Heisinger

The number I always heard has been 1%. But I would assume that would be the number used for big budget Hollywood Studio films. Everything of course is negotiable, but if you leave CA, and come to places here like Texas, assuming you are working on a film with a budget at all :) , they generally know nothing about live performance and don't normally want to pay for anything more than perhaps a guitarist or pianist. They also rarely can afford to license any major commercial songs and tend to go with less well known artists on places like www.musicsupervisor. com. Now I can't tell you how various states and locations differ from here, but around this parts a 'typical' (all inclusive) price for a feature tends to be in the $10k to $20k range though I have heard people quote prices at the rate of say about $100 minute as well. For shorts, I rarely hear of or see any significant amount of money or 'music budget' and more often than not, composers on shorts here work for just IMDB credit.

That's interesting, Joel. Thank you! I'm growing more interested in producing and trying to gain a better understanding of all the related fields in filmmaking and their costs. I really appreciate it!

Hi Beth, In recent years there has been a shift from producers who have not educated themselves much in budgeting for Post-Production. Music (and Sound in general) is often the last thought of, first to get cut down. SO I really appreciate you so much for thinking of this now! Yay! While not all projects are budgeted the same. The larger films tend to have a "composers fee", then a music budget. The music budget is relegated to both licensing and recording the score (and often times the music budget is broken down to license and musicians). The composer's fee remains untouched. The music for these $100mil+l films are usually between .5%-1% of the film's total budget. However, on a majority of shows/films the music comes as a complete package (usually minus the licensing). This can range from 1-10%. You really should budget at the very least $1000/min of composed music. So if you know you need 20 min of music - then budget $20k for a composer. You should have a sit-down with a Music Supervisor to discuss any licensing that you want to do after this is budgeted. While it may only take a seasoned composer 3 hours to write 1 minute, but once all the fix-notes, picture changes, programming, editing - it can take much longer, which drastically cuts into the actual budget/time for a composer. I usually budget about 20-25 hours per 1 min of music (for large mixed-use orchestral/synth). So if you think your composer is only worth $500 for a 20 min short - realize they are making as little as 80 cents/hr. Obviously giving "locked-picture" and a good temp helps speed that process up. That being said - I think it is asinine for any composer to work for only "credit" when you end up dumping so much time and effort into a score (unless it is a student film). Even if I am doing a favor for a friend, I usually ask for a nice bottle of wine or whiskey, if I am doing a short (even when I was in need of credits and experience, I always asked for something for my time). Thanks again for asking - means a lot!

Hi Samuel! Thank you so much! Yes, I try to approach everything with eyes wide open. There's so much to learn and so many wonderful people willing to share their knowledge and experience. I had no idea of the time typically budgeted: 20-25 hours, per 1 minute of music. That's new information. I also appreciate the simple budgeting of $1,000.00 per minute of composed music. They say simplicity is the ultimate in sophistication -- certainly the case with easy math! And, I agree, in most cases (except student work or for close friends), for anyone to work for credit only is rather asinine. That certainly is a familiar scenario that is often requested in screenwriting as well. However, for a good bottle of wine or IMDB credit... I might consider it. Haha! Anyway, thanks again. Between you and Joel I feel much more aware. :) Best to you both!

If I were in LA I would agree. I would not ever say I know every scorer/composer in Houston, but I would claim there are but a handful of composers at the $1k/min level and much of their work is corporate and commercial. The rest of us are more in the $100 to $500 / minute level. The market dictates the opportunities. I used to not want to score for IMDB credit and the result was I didn't get any work. I judge that for two reasons: (1) you can't charge money that exceeds the whole film budget. The fact is that many good composers outside of LA and perhaps especially in Houston in my estimation are overkill for a film. Films that don't generate revenue can not pay the crew, not the actors, not the dp, and not the post crew. Festivals and competitions don't pay and that is what a large majority of the projects seem to be. A filmmaker can certainly create a budget but their first priority seem to be actors, equipment and location and often there is little left for post. That is why, a fraction of my films (some of which I wrote music for), never made it out of post. And its not just Houston, I came on a LA-based feature documentary project in 2013 and wrote some music and the film never funded and the filmmaker stopped contacting me in Jan 2014 until 3 weeks ago. Now supposedly it will finish. As the expression sort of goes, you can't get milk from a dry cow (or something like that :) ). (2) like any other industry the economics dictate it all - what your competition is both doing and charging and the laws of supply and demand. Here, like perhaps many other places, there are many people wanting to compose for films and many of them score for free. The only reason I got one of my gigs last year was because I was the only one willing to go for credit. Now I can stick to my guns and say no money no music and here it will be no music. I am really not in a position to negotiate. The top 2 or 3 composers who have a track record and have worked with local producers with films going to network/cable have an ongoing relationship and there is a revenue expectation - the rest of us seem to be hit and miss. Now I draw the line with shorts - because they do not normally generate revenue. For features my expectation is at least deferred pay - I need to share in the 'fruits of the labor'. BTW, I can not give you specifics, but someone I know scripted a docudrama being shot here in Houston soon. The producer (and possible actor/actress) is an Oscar winner. The topic is something personally near and dear to me. I had thought the production company would be interested in spreading the work to local talents - production and post. I bid for the composing. Seems an LA-based composer wanting to work with this rich and famous person offered to score for free.

Thank you so much, Joel! Great point about different markets; different price bases; tight or no budgets. Every artist certainly has different motivations and reasons for getting involved with a project. I really appreciate you sharing your personal experience. ...Sorry, about the docudrama. That would have been better to keep it in Houston. Perhaps keep your ear to the ground, maybe it will still come your way. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. :)

Actually Beth and as a rule of thumb one should always count on 2% of the films budget for original music. This means cost of production of the score. Sometimes the composer's fee is included in this amount if it's a package deal and sometimes the composer's fee is separate from this amount amount. I've done both and it doesn't matter if it's a big budget movie or small indie film. Licensing fees for songs or whatever is, of course, separate and there really isn't a percentage tied to it. It depends on the needs of the film and the type of songs needed. The same concept applies to television!

Thanks Beth - 'friendly' suggestion as we don't know who the readers of these things are and the impact of our words.... I would hesitate from using language like 'asinine' to describe behaviors in general. I know I took a bit of offense to the use of that word to describe my business decisions to score for imdb credit.

Joel, sorry you feel that way. Offending certainly was not intended. Besides, that's actually pretty tame.... Have you ever looked in the screenwriter's section?! Lol :)

Thank you, Roger! Great information. It's so helpful to receive different points of view. I really appreciate it. :)

Beth - as a friendly comment it was more intended to highlight the need for us to be careful with our words for unintentional consequences. It was pretty tame in this case. :)

No problem Beth. I've scored dozens and dozens of Films/TV/Theatre etc so have seen it ALL!

Joel that comment was not meant to offend at all! Very sorry if it did. I just have never understood why any composer would just work for credit, even when one had no credits. When I started - I always asked for something. If you know the film will do well and get distributed and shown like crazy and you can make a living off of the PRO - that's a different scenario, OR like I said, you may want to do something for free to develop a relationship with a new director/student film makers. The thing is - if you are trying to make a living at being a composer, you can't do that on credit alone. I don't have the luxury of having a consistent paycheck from a regular gig, so if I've put 50k into my gear, and spend 200+ hours on a project, have to pay ridiculous LA rent prices, and 1-2 assistants so I can get the project done, - and I get nothing out of it - it just seems a bit silly and a very, very bad business decision. That person who's scoring the film for free, can 1) afford to do it 2) Will probably make some money off of their PRO, 3) keeps a good relationship with their producer 4) Is asinine for doing it, and closing you out of a gig! :) (hope the humor translates here) Joel - you are in a very different location, doing a different thing than I'm doing - and more power to you. I am truly very happy you can balance your day gig and doing the thing you love to do (probably also a bit envious). But when we are talking about budgeting for film and setting a music budget - last thing we want to talk about is "credit only" or "deferred payment". If there is a budget there - make room for it as a film maker, that 1%-2% is appropriate for mid-large budget films 1mil+. Again the important thing as a film maker is knowing what you want, how you are going to get it, and whom to work with to get what you need within the budget you have. Roger Bellon - I had no idea you were on Stage32! Nice to have you here and your many years of experience. Always was a fan of the Highlander Series (and Robin Hood too!)

Thanks Samuel!!!

Sam - I actually totally agree with you and that is why I made a career decision not to move to LA. There are really two worlds for composers imho - the la/ny (possibly nashville/atlanta) one and everywhere else. I'm in the everywhere else - out here if you want to be a full time composer and make a living at it - you are typically working many commercial and corporate gigs and you pitch like crazy for the film/tv gigs often competing with the composers say from Austin as well. A few here are very talented and well connected business wise and 'get by'. I would suspect though I have no data to back it up, that there are more composers both quantitatively and percentage wise in the cities above than out everywhere else. So in my opinion, a composer out here takes to other fields in music as primary income - like teaching in the various school systems. However, it is really not much different than the musician performer field here - funding and jobs for the arts are also becoming scarce and I have professional acquaintances who end up in gigs like financial planning. If one invests thousands in gear and spends all the waking hours in composing for film/tv, a sane business decision must be to ask for compensation. Out in Texas and other parts, we all want to be employed and paid full time in the film business but there is no major established film business, no studios, etc. We as composers are no different from anyone else here in film - some independent companies that are struggling to survive - many of whom are soley into shorts. The advantage of competitions is it encourages people to get involved in the film biz - the disadvantage is it discourages for profit films. We have become swamped with various 'x hour' competitions 24, 96, 48, whatever along with splatterfest, a comedy one - we may eventually become the film competition capital of the U.S. :) I am definitely not hooked into everything though I know a little bit. I know quite a few DP and other production people (incl. actors) that seem to be always busy and presumably earning a full time living at it though it really is none of my business to ask. I am not well connected with the post people here except for the composers and I can personally only count on one hand the ones I believe are full time employed through film/tv composing. Mind you there have to be undoubtedly many composers since we seem to have a couple of films a week showing by local filmmakers. I am going to a monthly get together with one of the professional organizations here called Southwest Alternate Media Project (www.swamp.org) on Tue night and there are usually many filmmakers there so I will make it my business to ask. I truly want to stay connected and know and understand this information for our film community. Meanwhile in my personal case, I am surely not earning a living in film currently. My 'day job' at least keeps me in the entertainment biz (and bit connected with my production equivalents) sort of since I am an independent wedding videographer (www.nofrillsvideo.com). I make it my business when I am not shooting or otherwise involved with a wedding, to spend the remainder of my time in the music business - I write for jazz and classical, work with lyricists on pop and happen during the next day or so be simplifying charts for an original piece I wrote for a string orchestra performance by a group of Katy Texas elementary school students to be performed this May. Apparently, putting the piece in C and using half and whole notes is still too difficult - my trombonist friend who runs the music program in that school needs it further simplified - no double stops, everyone gets their own staff, no large jumps and the challenge to keep all the playing if possible (especially for the violinists) in the 'first position'. Many of these performers are in the 9 to 11 year old bracket - a far cry from symphonic performers. Those who score solely electronically with samples probably have no appreciation for the challenge scoring of this for live performance (with parents who 'drool' over whatever is played :) ) While I don't have 'full time' income I am by far NOT retired and NOT doing this as a hobby. I work all my jobs professionally. I just happened to be blessed by spending 30+ years in an IT technology evaluation job - 23 of them at Exxon ('76 to '00).

It should be the 1.5% of the budget of the film..

Regardless of budget, regardless of live symphonic recordings or studio produced midi scores, regardless of anything else really - you always get what you pay for. If you pay any % of your budget on licensed commercially released music or library tracks you will get pay for, if you spend 0% of your budget on an amateur you get what you pay for, If you spend any % of your budget on a experienced professional film composer you will get what you pay for.

Well Beth looks like everyone has give you some great advice. I can only say with the Grammy winners I know it would be a candy factory to produce music for a major film. I believe most of it is wasted.

Stanley, from the perspective of the producer, the choice of music -- whether purchasing music rights or acquiring original composition -- is made first and foremost by how well the music serves the story, the aesthetic vision and the desired audience experience. And, of course, there's that pesky budget to consider...

Thanks again everyone! Great advice! I really appreciate it. :)

it depends on who the composer is and what they're willing to accept/or expect from the production. A good composer and producer will create a life-long creative partnership that will benefit both studio and composer.

Usually the percentage for the music is the 1.5% of the total budget.

Sam and Roger nailed all the details! Wish I could add more but they got you covered. :)

Joel, you may want to sign up for my webinar this Saturday as I'll be discussing ways to earn even if you reside outside of L.A. https://www.stage32.com/webinars/7-Insider-Tips-To-Becoming-A-Working-Fi... Didn't mean to digress... Back to the thread!

I love this site. More good information in one sitting than I might have gotten in a year. Thanks everyone.

Samuel and Joel, you guys have such great points. Now, I have done most of what I have done on shorts and such. But after getting my feet wet for a while, I decided against NOT doing anything for free any more. That being said, I know that people that are doing shorts or indies don't have money, or very little money. If I do work for someone that HAS a budget, and they have money, then my rate applies. If I don't, I tell them, "pay me what you can". Literally, I don't care what it is. It could be little of nothing, it's just the principle. That way, I build my resume, and keep my principle at the same time. Thanks guys, great input.