Here's a chance for those of you/us who create music to get down and dirty. I am certain there are multiple opinions on this and no easy answer. Last week I brought in one of my recent scores for review/critique in a composition class I am taking. The feedback I received, suggested that as this was a full orchestra score, there was no need to have more than one instrument/staff playing counter-melody at a time.
Do you agree with this or do you at times consider either having (a) two or more instruments/staffs playing the same counter-melody or (b) have more than one/different counter-melodies going at the same time. For example, would you harmonize a counter-melody? When is too much or at what point do you just simply get to the point where there is too much going on at the same time (especially that the score is normally mixed low and it would be difficult to hear it all anyway)?
Hi Joel,
I would have to hear it.
Have a link ??
Was it made for specific film / tv ??
Like you said at end, depends on how low it’s placed in movie for volume.
There’s the high frequency which could affect / come out w harmonies.
As far as scoring, I always like polyphonic Lines - challenging and hard to write; though has to fit the video/story going on too.
As the first point I remember from Hans Zimmers course is ... story .... with Question and Answer.
Things to think about; not sure I answered your question.
Have a great weekend,
Sincerely,
Kerry Kennard
I'm with Kerry Kennard, I'd really have to hear it. Every piece is different.
Question !! - Answer ! You’d have to hear Han’s accent as he pointed out the phrases with the music playing.
1 person likes this
I agree with Kerry & Brian. I'd have to hear the piece first & know what else is going on in the scene. In general, I'm a big fan of breaking traditional rules when it comes to art.
http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=221384
I was rescoring it per director request to change the opening church organ cue to one using bagpipes and then a bunch of cues were made longer since the film had a couple of modified scenes. Interestingly this score was nominated for "best score" at the 168 film festival this past August. I think the critique came with regards to the title music which first appears at 2m45 to 4m but I believe there is one counter-melody line (mostly violin 1). The second time with counter-melody is 8m40s to the end. I am not staring at the score right now but I believe there are multiple staffs using the same counter-melody.
My question though was more 'general'. Supposingly you have a melody and a defined counter-melody, should you decide to use additional instrumentation, what do you do with them and what shouldn't you do especially in the 'tutti' sections.
(I know what I do with them based upon my sound/style/cue requirments. I occasionally here bring up an artistic creation issue since we all too much imho discuss business questions, professional relationship issues, production/post-production issues, and not enough about how we create and what we create)..
Hi Joel,
I was listening - for a while. The player has to switch to html 5 to play on my iPhone 7.
I know - Apple and it’s ways.
Wanted to ask if ‘Last Command’ is on your YouTube page; this way we can scroll to 2:45 for the part. Did not see it there. Do you have SoundCloud account ? Can scroll there.
I’m a new wannabe, drummer dude over 50, and looks like you have your writing together.
Great credits !!
Listened to Batman Begins ending credits on Warner Bros. and there were counter melodies 1/2 way through. Didn’t hear any doubling of the low oboe or string 1; no score, though know sounds from music background.
Yes great to discuss the creative part!
Dorico support FB page had a comment on
Writing Holds above rests when one player had four 16th notes. I suggested one Hold - not two, since Dorico did the page break so clean - and does look not so messy in the measure (two holds in 4/4). Still use Sibelius 7.5, though purchased Dorico this year. Learning curve a steep, but worth it - once learned.
kerry - contact me privately for youtube link. Icompositions/artists/joelirwin has been my primary parked location for almost 10 years. I have something like 125+ tracks there and its totally free and I get lots of llistens - almost 72,000. Keep in mind that the audio track includes just the cues and will not match the film which as you would suspect has places without music.
p.s. - looks like the dorico comment above belongs in a different post.
Things to consider are why you'd want the counter-melody in octaves or doubled. And if the effect is interfering with your other intentions. Does the doubling draw the ear from the main melody? And if it does, is that your intent? Does the doubling make the line muddy, or does it clarify? Is the doubling to shore up forces (maybe you only have two violas and doubling with an alto flute helps to cement the line)? Every piece and situation is different. I don't think you can making a sweeping statement like "never double a counter-melody." What about Rozsa, Jarre, or Horner, just to name a few? It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. It's kind of like the statement "film scores should never be noticed...they should remain in the background." Not true depending on the film. A better adage would be "film scores should be appropriate for the film." Is your orchestration appropriate for your piece? Listen to it as if I had composed it and be really critical. What do you hear?
Here is an example of music I scored for a film last week (my 9th scored film this year). In the second part which is the end title music, you will hear counter-melody being played by multiple instruments and as well as harmony to the counter-melody.
http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=223576
Good counterpoint naturally creates counter-melodies, since the point of it is to create voices that are both harmonically dependent yet independent lines in and of themselves. In my Main Title to RUSTIN, Violin I has the melody, but Violin II and Violas have their own harmonized counter-melody. https://soundcloud.com/jonathanprice/rustin-main-title
1 person likes this
Beautiful piece, Jonathan. Thanks for sharing it.
Nice stuff Jonathan. And now I want to get a bit 'techie'. This may be splitting hairs and not be exactly what other people call 'countermelody'. But here is my take - for me, melody moves so when the melody note gets held and something/some other instrument is moving, they have temporarily picked up the melody. And so melody can in my opinion be passed back and forth between instruments/staffs and therefore, none of the instruments/staff in that scenario are 'counter-melody'. And if two instruments/staffs are playing different notes in the same rhythm or one is playing melody and the other is playing a different though longer held note - I would call that harmony.
When I think of counter-melody (as perhaps the way I first learnt it) is when there are two or more instruments/staffs playing different notes and rhythms against each other (and one carries the melody) in perhaps the way we first heard it by Bach.
In the first half of my final/second example above from "True Bliss" (up to 38 seconds), the melody passes back and forth between trumpet and piano and if the piano/violins don't own the melody, they are playing harmony. No counter-melody in the first half. In the second half, there are places where violin 1's on the left are playing different notes at the same time as the main melody (mostly played by the flute/oboe/clarinet). The first time through it can be barely heard up to 1m13s and it is more discernible the second time. I would suggest that the part played by the French Horns at 1m30s is counter-melody since those 3 eight notes followed by 3 quarter notes provide a contrasting melody to the main melody of 3 quarter notes and a dotted half played by violins 1. This is done twice to 1m40s. And then the French Horns play a different counter melody from 1m40s to the end against the Violin 1's and the other notes which provide harmony against the main melody.
Again it's probably splitting hairs trying to differentiate between melodic 'handoffs' and two melodies going at the same time.
But I bring it up here just so that others can think about it in the context of a film music piece and have them understand what our music does and how that could help them create their own orchestrations.
In my opinion, even in a 'master class' - things are often very general and we don't get an opportunity to discuss and think about the actual notes and what the options are. So I have from time to time used this forum to get down and dirty to discuss things I have heard from the composing classes I am taking where I get very specific feedback about things like counter-melody (which was the original motivation for this somewhat long thread/responses).
By the way, any music we have linked to hear is for the specific purpose of providing examples concerning our discussions and not intended as 'self-promotion'.
p.s. - I would love to see others take some of their original music scored for films and dissect it here in whatever way they feel would be educational for the rest of us. And if the music exists in chart form (and not 'piano roll' form) and with the understand that it is copyrighted material, provide charts we can watch and follow while we listen. I am willing to provide PDFs for any of my pieces discussed here.
Yep, that's why I posted RUSTIN. It's not a traditional sense of counter-melody but, strictly speaking, any good counterpoint contains counter-melodies. In RUSTIN, you could take the VLN II/VLA line as the melody and it works without the VLN I melody. And the counter-melody is harmonized. But, yeah, a more traditional counter-melody can be heard at the 8:35 mark of CHRISTMAS PARADE AT FERRARI WORLD (it's not too early to reference this is it, being the day before Thanksgiving?): https://soundcloud.com/jonathanprice/christmas-parade-at-ferarri-world
Joel, I was trying to relate to ... no need to have more than one instrument/staff playing counter-melody at a time, ... to how Dorico handles notes. Know you're going for the Counter-Melody and musicality; only saying how to score when blank parts/measures are above the Counter Melody playing. (You know how to do this after 20 years).
Could you message me a sample of your composition?
Johnny, who are you asking for the sample and are you looking to listen or get the score?