Screenwriting : Are notes a scam? by Craig D Griffiths

Agree with a lot of this! I spent hundreds on notes, chasing that fabled "RECOMMEND" from mysterious readers. Have they ever sold a script? I don't know! That was on WeScreenplay. And the ranking made no sense! How can I get a 5/5 for Tone of Voice from one reader, and a 2/5 from another?

Lyndon Booth I am glad you like this. I meant to post it in my profile not in the lounge, oops. Didn’t mean to self promote. But it is about writing, so let hope it isn’t seen as criminal.

This is a super hard business to make a living in. I will never be able to replace my daytime wage with writing. But I have some success and that is all I want. However, I do find it offensive when others prey on the dreams and ambitions of people. The “I know what you need to do to make it big” promise. If you know, do it yourself.

Then there is the dumb logic, some people can see the issues, but can’t write, FFS. That is what writing is, finding problems and fixing them.

Thanks again

When someone says "define irony"

https://twitter.com/TravisSeppala/status/1515496753608359939

Kiril Maksimoski I love that.

Thank you Craig D Griffiths for the post. You've given voice to what's been living in my head rent free. Here is a question you pose - with the recommends, who are they recommending us to? I have two screenplays now with recommends, but, I will wager it's never passed on to peers or others who can help us move forward. Keeps coming back to a rejection based environment.

There are notes and there are notes by salary ppl employed at companies. Choose latter. How u get to the latter-I have no idea. Never been to a studio sit-down. Ppl (usually unemployed) say "Industry this and that", and have no experience at all- jobs.

Imagine sports Ranters, like me who never played sports for a job , giving sport advice to pro ballers... lol

Does this include the many expensive coverage services available here? Are they a scam too?

Kiril Maksimoski maybe 50 years ago, lots of old timers didnt know screenplay format but they know how to craft stories, lots of playwrights turned screenwriters.

My fav screenwriting teachers in the 1990s were telling us to read James Joyce, Russian playwrights. There were no how-to books, and this occupation was a niche- you had to know someone to work. like joining the mob. "Friends of ours, and a friend of mine."

Script coverage from a reader is valuable to help educate you to be a better screenwriter (as you mentioned in the video, Craig).

Coverage from a reader can reveal things a writer hasn't thought about, or show a writer problems in a script. So, coverage can help you sell a script.

I don't think coverage is ALWAYS needed. If you think your script is ready to pitch, skip coverage. If you think you need coverage, get coverage.

Getting recommends from readers can be helpful. There are many times when writers sold scripts or were hired for jobs based on recommends (like on Stage 32).

I don't think the coverage services that are offered here are a scam, E Langley. They've helped many writers get better at screenwriting, option/sell scripts, get jobs, land representation, etc.

I understand you didn't infer it, E Langley. I was only answering. :) I agree with your comment.

Thanks everyone for the comments and debate.

E Langley, if they promise any form of advantage that cannot be realised or they are using terms borrowed from a legitimate sources without being that source, yes it would be a scam. That comes from years in the government working in consumer protection.

As Dan MaXx said there are readers in studios and these are parts of the process. The use the P/C/R markings because that is going to be used by the next person in this chain. If you are not part of the chain, then why use them. Unless you are trying to give the impression that you are part of the chain, or want to look like you are. That would be scam-like behaviour.

I am like Dan G I don’t use paid services. But I also hate writers being ripped off.

If you're going to get coverage there is no reason you can't research and vet the reader. No one forces anyone to get coverage. It's an individual decision. I can honestly say coverage helped me and led to my script getting optioned (I used this platform by the way). Sending it to friends who supposedly were industry insiders did not. Regardless unless you're producing your own stuff with your own money you're going to have to deal with notes of some sort. If you can get your scripts optioned and sold without coverage then that's great for you.

I will give feedback for money

My experience with coverage, both in Australia and here on Stage 32, is that it helped improve my script immensely. I agreed with some of it, and not with the rest, so I took what was useful to develop the story. Conversations and pitches with carefully chosen executives have also helped.

Having my writers group read my script and give feedback was helpful, but none of them are into sci-fi or familiar with screenplay technique. So again I took what was pertinent and left the rest.

I agree with Craig D Griffiths... it is a learning experience and has helped me begin to understand how the business works. None of it is wasted. In the meantime I will keep writing my stories.

Here is an off-topic example that I hope clarifies my stance.

Ribena (the blackcurrant children’s drink) previously advertised.

“Blackcurrants have 3 times the Vitamin C of Oranges. Ribena is made from Blackcurrants”.

They had to do “corrective advertising” in Australia because Ribena (at the time) had NO Vitamin C. They stated that they didn’t mean to imply that it did, they were just stating a fact.

This is like some services that give notes wrapping themselves in the terms and appearance of the studio process when they are not. Their defence would be, “I didn’t say I was recommending the screenplay to anyone”.

Martin, this may be splitting hairs, sorry for that. But you are a better writer for receiving those notes. So it had an educational impact on you, which is (I believe) the function of notes.

Notes in some (I would say rare) circumstance lead to bigger and better things. Stage32 may be able to recommend someone to someone else. That would make their recommend not a scam. If Stage32 has a profile that makes their “recommend” meaningful, even better. That would be like attaching an actor with credibility, it lends credibility to your project. But having a small number of legitimate service does not make the rest of the services legitimate.

I am very pragmatic in my decision making. Unless I can see a direct outcome from an action I cannot attribute that outcome to that action.

I am not into inferring. I openly stated my opinion. There was no inference. Unless you can show that your actions have an impact on the result, claiming that outcome is a scam.

Like I have always stated. Great source of education. It may even feed someone’s need to have their work read. God knows I bored my wife to death in the early days.

I would hope we are heading towards unblinking honesty.

Feedback and notes are no different than taking lessons from a tennis coach, basketball coach, or horse trainer (I could go on and on) The question then is what level is the coach? To serve a curveball can be achieved in two ways. You can practice with good players and put in the hours to learn, OR you can pay a coach to teach you how to hit it. This is no different with screenwriting. You can put in the many self-taught hours, and learn from mistakes OR you can pay someone with a little more experience than you to teach you. It's all relative. Also, paying for feedback and notes if you're not short on financial resources is also no different than a person who loves to spend thousands of dollars on something they're passionate about! And that is the difference of opinions. Subjective to whom it matters.

Feel that Dan MaxXx :)

I agree with you, DD Myles. Ultimately the goal is to have the best screenplay possible. How you get there is up to you.

There certainly is no absolute to this issue but it has become quite evident to me that the knowledge gap between the note takers and the note makers has become quite narrow at the lower end of the knowledge scale. Overall, I see a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I agree, Dan! But it's up to that person to have the wits, common sense to research or question, "why" should I pay for your services, if you're guaranteeing I'll be successful. All the new screenwriter has to do is say, "okay, let's put that guarantee into a "Contract" Scammers will disappear like roaches when the lights come on. Now if said person doesn't do that, then like they say, "there is a sucker born every minute of the day!" Desperation is the culprit behind why people get scammed! And we all know a desperate person will do anything. We have to continue to preach, "Don't be desperate." to new screenwriters! It's a long process like any other professional endeavor!

I was completely unaware of Linda Seger. I did some research. Wikipedia says she is most famous for her books and she had “consulted” on over 80 films and TV shows. Well done. That sounds like a great career.

I think you are confusing rewrite work, like what Linda was doing and critiquing (giving notes). Sitting down and just making comments isn’t what Linda was doing (based on my research). Linda (now retired) would fix the problems. So in fact she was a writer. She found it easier to make a living fixing rather than creating from scratch. A bit like a builder that specialises in renovation rather than construction.

E Langley Iooked at your profile in case, like someone assumed, you are a paid note giver. But you write, like the rest of us. You are self taught (well done - like myself) and you profess to wanting to be a rule breaker. Yet you are defend conformity. The need to be like everyone else. To listen to people that are not you.

People have heard me say this a million times. I don’t get notes, mostly because I haven’t seen great examples and I am an overly confident asshole.

Linda Seger is famous because she promoted herself well, pretty clearly. On a quick search, I don't see reviews and accolades from writers who got their script sold and produced because of her, though they might be out there and I didn't find any nasty reviews of her, either. Honestly, I would not get notes from someone who hasn't had their own scripts successfully produced. That means like, almost literally none of those who give notes and coverage are, IMO, qualified to do what they are being paid to do.

Craig: Nice job on your video. Your office is like mine. Musical instruments and a dog running around.

Paying for script notes is not a one size fits all topic. I've once paid once and found it an interesting experience. This industry exec had minor suggestions that were sound. I've also received notes from William Morris at no charge. I've received extensive notes from various producers and changed what I thought added value but fought for things I didn't want to rewrite or omit. I also have an excellent sphere of writers I trust who have also provided some respectable editing suggestions. My conclusion is the value of notes/feedback is in the eye of the beholder.

E, you say in your profile you are self taught. That is not any form of judgment just a recognition of a statement you made.

Someone (or an organisation) is never a thing. I was assessing and classifying a collection of actions. I am also pointing out, based on my experience in consumer protection, common things some people to get credibility that they do not deserve.

If Stage32 engages in such deceptive practices, yes that would be a scam. If anyone including myself engaged in such practices, that would be a scam.

I use my name (real name) everywhere so people can find out everything about me. If I am a scammer, liar, or thief, I have left myself no where to hide.

You can even download my screenplays from scriptrevolution.com and they have my home address on the cover.

I try to be as real and honest as I can. If anyone finds what I do a scam I hope to be told so I can correct my actions.

I have voiced my opinion and untold I am proven wrong, which I often am, my beliefs seem to solid for me. So I will share them in a hope to trigger thought in others and I hope to protect them in some way.

I have no bone to pick with anyone on this topic. All I can say is that I've never paid anyone for 'notes' but recalling experiences of times long ago (yeah, I still can). I recall Hitch scribbling a note about withholding critical information in one of my early scripts; I have another script in which Tom Sawyer wrote notes about excessive exposition. And I've had a few others along the way. Over the years, those are free 'notes' that have meaning and stuck with me.

Craig, there's so much to unravel here after seeing your video. As a former "Hollywood manager and producer" for many years before joining Stage 32, I will say this. There are good notes and bad notes and it all depends on the situation the script the exec the project and the circumstances. I can tell you that "good" notes from someone who knows what they are doing are ALWAYS going to make your script better. Especially if you are hearing the same note from a few people. More experienced readers and producers will expect better material. I have also worked with EVPs of big studios that have given crappy notes that amazed me. The agenda always depends. If someone is paying you ... you do the notes. If not, you take from them what they offer that speaks to your instincts and you make your material better. If someone is taking the time to read your material you owe it to them to discuss the note without being defensive and see if you can challenge yourself to make something work if it's not clicking on all cylinders. I know what bad notes are. And most writers don't know unless they feel it in their bones. But good notes from the right people will ALWAYS benefit a script being better. It all depends on who the source is. Maybe only a little better but it can always help. And if the notes are not specific enough you can always say, "that's a good note I need to think of it more. Can you give me an example or expand on it?" Sometimes if people know you are open and not fighting them it will disarm them and they will get more granular with you which will help YOU. That's why educators in the business that know what they are talking about, like the educators on Stage 32, can be super helpful. And even then you might not agree. But if something is not working from/for multiple sources you need to look at how you are executing something and see if you can do better or keep looking elsewhere and stick to your guns. Taking what you can and moving on is the best advice. If no one is paying you but they are reading your material -- and you can tell they really have... see what you can get from them FOR FREE by taking the notes and seeing how if you made the note work ... maybe it would benefit your material and if not, move on.

I'm gonna add my two cents' worth, because this is a lively lounge and I am doing nothing else at the moment. :)

IMO, everyone is forgetting what is more important than notes in any form - RELATIONSHIPS.

This is a business of relationships; if you spend the time and effort to build long-lasting actual friendships, you will find that the whole idea of paying for notes becomes moot. You will have, in your inner circle, people who can actually analyze story, structure, and so on, that will make you a better writer.

AND you will know them well enough to ask them to spend the time doing just that (without pay) - and they'll be happy to do that! It's amazing what friends will do for each other!

In this context, paying for notes is an attempt to shortcut the process of having a career in screenwriting.

But I've got news for y'all - there are no shortcuts! You will either spend the money (classes, notes, even film school), or you'll spend the time (self-taught through books and reading scripts, and meaningful networking). Or a combination of both.

But the bottom line is, to have a successful career, you will pay your dues one way or another.

Screenwriting is NOT a get-rich-quick scheme.

A career is a marathon, not a sprint.

Just sayin'. :)

Ilan Breil, thank you for the subjective view. Here is a perfect example of bad notes vs good notes. I submitted my very first TV Pilot to two execs on Stage32. Both passed on me as a writer and material. But here was the difference. One exec (new exec) ripped my screenplay to shreds. Basically said I'm no good in so many coded words. everything was terrible: characters, premise, and structure. The dialogue was the worst he read. Bad grammar, etc. Now the 2nd exec (veteran) loved my characters. Loved the premise. Brokedown my screenplay with constructive criticism. A few typos. I had too many flashbacks. Find one narrative and tell the story from that point of view. And said I had everything there to have an awesome Pilot. See now that is the difference between bad notes and good notes!

Totally agree that there are good notes and bad notes. It's a challenge to every creative to know the difference and to learn who you can trust.

I don’t as a rule have an issue with notes for notes sake. Yes there are good and bad notes. I have received both. But they are usually from collaborators. So we are working towards a common interest. The final product will benefit us both.

My “in a nutshell” point was that they are a learning tool if they are not from a collaborator. If you cannot see a particular problem, then notes are great until you learn that skill. If you fall into the same trap, no matter what that is, until you learn to identify it, notes are good.

People should also put an enough into learning. There is nothing I know, on any topic, that every person here couldn’t learn for themselves.

If you are a note giver by profession. Here is a unique selling proposition for you. “The notes I give you will give you the skills so you wont need my services anymore”.

One last thing. We shouldn’t confuse “notes” with advice from people we trust. These are different things. People go to a therapist for a paid professional service (which should be open to scrutiny) and also talk to the friends. Not the same thing.

That sounds spot on!

I dont have the heart or patience anymore to dive into this topic again too much. But I will say this.... If you are still confusing COVERAGE with NOTES, then you're probably someone who needs notes on your script. Coverage is written so that no one else has to read your script. Notes are given so that everyone else will want to.

There will always be detractors, but let me tell you - the writers who get GOOD notes from QUALIFIED, experienced people and LEARN how to improve their writing and their scripts, become better writers faster. And those who learn how to work through (and with) the notes process - the development process -- will navigate a professional career much more easily.

Yes - do your due dilligence! Know from whom you're getting notes! Don't go to some 24 year old reader who has read 50 scripts. Or some anonymous set of initials. Go to a person who has worked IN THE BUSINESS in a capacity where they had to actually give notes and work with a writer, and has read thousands of scripts, and get notes from them.

Craig D Griffiths - it's not that writers cant learn things for themselves... it's that most don't know how to IMPLEMENT the things they are learning without some guidance and feedback from someone with much more experience than they have.

And for all of you who say things like, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, consult.." -- stop saying stupid things.

Danny, let me start by saying we have clashed over views in the past and we have never convince the other of our positions. But we have always been honest and you have always been transparent. I am saying that so anyone coming to this conversation late in the piece doesn’t think you are highjacking it for self promotion.

I would put to you that someone hasn’t really learnt anything if someone has to tell them how to implement it. I would say they are still learning. Like a parent making chewing motions while a baby eats. Can we say the baby really knows how to feed itself if it needs those prompts.

Also certain words you used make do the “Oh Danny” face. “Qualified”? Experienced may be a better choice. Qualified does imply that there are qualifications. Unless I am unaware of a University or College course that specialises in Notes. I wish there was a course, we could use that to introduce a licence. I love regulation of an industry.

This is a very interesting thread. The ultimate goal is to be a working screenwriter where folks are hiring you based on how good your writing is or you're writing and producing your own stuff. Everybody is at different levels in their writing careers. How you reach your ultimate goal is up to you. If someone wants to pay for notes and it helps them then so be it. If someone does not want to pay for script services and they are happy where they are at in their career then that's OK too. No one knows everything and if they say they do then they're lying. Good luck to all in their writing endeavors.

Not my contention, Danny Boy. That's in OP. "According to some, and abetted by others, he represents a firm that scams people." "Some." "Others." Not " 'I." Seems clear enough to me.

There exists the possibility some writers will receive feedback that helps them develop craft. Everyone makes their own choices. Why short circuit that choice.

Has the Bunny left the building yet or is there yet another chapter?

Thanks everyone. It has been entertaining. A good cross section of opinions. DanG is off to do some writing. I am about to Zoom my son in NYC. He is over there setting up a cancer clinic. He has a job that changes the world, unlike his dad.

Wait for my next post “screenwriting software, no one needs it”…. just joking.

Phil, yep love my guitars. I picked up a little JOYO Sweetbaby tube amp for my lounge room as a practice amp. If you are in the market for a 5w tube amp. These are awesome.

Doug: The bunny euthanized itself with a cyanide capsule.

Hey Danny M, Ilan Breil here. We know each other from the. "business". As a former literary manager with big clients and experience for 27 years I would say you are 100% correct with you comments. I sincerely think if people read what I wrote and what you wrote they would grow. People, with all due respect and love and a desire to help, Danny and I have a collective 45-50 years of exp on the inside and I encourage you to read this chain and see what we wrote. The combo of it and the education Stage 32 offers will help you be better writers. I don't care if you are Jewish, Catholic or don't believe in religion. I am into the religion of teaching and helping writers as I did for decades. You only grow by becomes a better writer and the way you can do that is learning, classes, writing and reading a tons of produced scripts that you liked that you have seen to see how the pros do it on the page. It is that easy. At least that's the solution. But that can't make you have the golden ticket of that talent that raises above the noise. You can only strive to become it until you find someone that wants to help you. Easier said than done. And people are overworked and lazy. I also think the better the dialogue the better the script and the chances imho. Writing good stuff is not easy or there would be millions of more good movies. If a movie is crap it was a bad script that lacked development or poorly directed or miscast. It's that simple. I also encourage you to read scripts of movies that are meh so you can see if they script was better. That often is the case. Good luck and may the force be with you.

Hey E Langley, I have a new video drop in 15 minutes if you want to go and get angry in all direction at that one.

I was an idiot for saying Notes are an educational tool and a potential waste of money. Then people that charge for notes are also wrong and should do Pro Bono work.

At least you don’t play favourites I guess.

Even I am getting sick of this thread.

E Langley... thanks for posting my website! Yeah, there's a famous saying that there's no free lunch in Hollywood. That's might site for script services you posted and frankly since I started working for Stage 32 I am full throttle in being a part of a team that cares about it's community. I was a very successful literary manager for 20 years at 3 big firms and repped top A list talent. You can check me out on Linkedin, though I think Stage 32 is a better place to network. I am trying to be of service here "for free" by offering free advice, and frankly I think it's candid and invaluable. I have also done hundreds of pro bono script reads before and often lowered my fee if I believed in where the writer was coming from. But no one really works for free. At least not if you want to make a living. Writers in this business get paid to write (if they are "working writers") or they write on spec with the hopes of it selling or being used as a tool to get them work. All I am trying to do in these lounges is be helpful and give pro bono advice to people I care for like this platform which is why I wanted to come and work for them. I made a lot of money doing script services and wanted to do something more meaningful after years of taking out abuse on behalf of artists from the buyers and dealing with BS that Hollywood slings. But we all do what we have to to pay the rent. But people like Danny and myself offer more of our time for free or less money than most. It's place like this community RB has built that makes people have faith a network can help them thrive. Is there something I can help you with? Any advice I can offer you?

wow. That's witty and creative. I am sure you must be a great writer. Once again, here to help so let me know otherwise best of luck to you in all your creative endeavors. And unlike many in Hollywood that say that and don't mean it I sincerely do ;)

Elaine, that’s it? Not…

Grate Griffo

The blunder from down under

Bald ignorance

Looks like you need some notes around insults and sarcasm.

Craig, you said many times you dont care about Hollywood, but you spend lots of time talking about Hollywood (from outside). What is it, either you want this life or you dont, and if you dont, why continue to talk about a business you have no interest?

Dan MaxXx I have no interest in drink driving, but I can still have an opinion. I also don’t think I have ever mentioned Hollywood in any of my videos or blog posts.

You don’t think the words “producer”, “studio” etc only exist in Hollywood do you?

Craig, then what do you mean by "industry"? Define. And what country does this "industry" have the most customers and note sellers, and what level of "industry" you are targeting, indie mom/pop, or corporations ?

Okay. Industry is commerce organised around a single product or service.

That can be in any country. Most countries will model their behaviour of larger proven markets. Australia is the largest users of rooftop for power generation. The energy retailers (different to the providers) will give me a few cents per kilowatt. This model has been adopted around the world.

America has a large filmmaking industry. So many countries will adopt that model in their country. However, some countries, like mine, the UK and others, the government plays a part in funding. In these situation studios etc are used as filters to the government money.

I hope that clarifies my use of the world Industry when referring to filmmaking.

But due to the internet bad behaviour is no longer geographically. Nigerian Prince scam for example. Plus if you want to rip off people in other countries, it would be better to put yourself near Hollywood, wouldn’t you agree.

Whats always hilarious to me, are writers who seem to crap on things they've never experienced, or reject things simply because it didnt work brilliantly for them personally. Or reject Hollywood because theyre "true artists". Yet, they spend hours on these message boards not making art. Yes, i charge for notes. This is my business. Im really good at it. And i bring 19 years of experience and 7000 scripts read to my notes. I was a development exec for 7 years at companies with studio deals and 3 #1 movies at the box office. Ilan Breil - who happened to be my very FIRST agent lunch meeting when i was promoted to creative exec at 24 years old - has even more experience making writers lots of money and getting their scripts sold. He knows what he's talking about. and Both of us have been thru the Hollywood machine - the good, bad, and really ugly! Now, you dont have to listen to us. We are not the be all and end all of anything. I encourage writers to find the path that works for them! BUT, if the biggest success youve had in this biz is being top 15% in Nicholls one year... maybe paying for professional notes and listening to those who have been helping writers for 20 years... isnt the WORST idea?

Danny M for President 2024

Uncle Phil - it's an energized New York thump bunny - It'll last forever.

E is sarcasm the only way to respond if we are both being legit helpful to people with our time by making ourselves available to people on this social platform? Perhaps you have a challenging question about the inner working of the system in Hollywood that we can actually answer for you that is or can be help?

E Langley:

Thanks so much. I learned an excellent new word today, which is brickbats. I was sure it wasn't a bat that was a bricklayer, but I looked it up. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brickbat.

I knew this forum would turn out to be educational.

That you E.

I was going to let this thread die.

Okay why am I “reprehensible”? Is it because I have an opinion and spoke it for all to hear? Is it because I articulated that I believe “Note” or whatever term you use are an educational tool?

Why am I “reprehensible”? I am guessing you are on Reddit a bit using OP. You may have noticed people tend to use names here.

you pay for 1 set of notes. thats it. never more than one.

in the old days the studios paid for notes. NOT the writer.

@David If you only get 1 set of notes, how do you know if u actually implemented and executed them correctly? most dont. thats why their scripts dont get better.

Notes are really just one persons opinion. you could get notes from 50 people, you will get 50 different opinions. a writer should go with his gut. not some "script reader" who gets paid $50 per script he reads, and he burns thru "skims" your script so he can read 5 in a week-end

David Rorie not be too academic. Isn’t everything a human opinion.

I would say both opinions are correct. One note may be enough to teach what you need to know.

You may also need learn more.

I would say rewrites to please a note giver is just please one person. I think it would be huge assumption to think that this person is the best measure for the industry. Please that person and you a fine for everyone. This is of course ridiculous. So we can say “I like that person’s taste” so I will please them.

So you have examples of my reprehensible behaviour. Got it.

You must realise that calling people names and attacking them and not the argument is less than helpful for the argument and yourself.

Perhaps you had some valid points. Mostly I remember the ageist comments, “get a room” and attacks you made on people just engaging in debate. I am more than happy to be wrong. Correction of incorrect thinking is growth. But I am not going to dig through low value comments to find something worth reading.

The reason I made the Reddit comment. Is someone on Reddit with a username staring with E, made an identical comment to me as you have made. Then you used the OP which is common on reddit. A poor inference and assumption on my behalf.

I am convinced the best shows are on TV. As least as far as casting and writing. EUPHORIA, WINNING TIME and SUCCESSION. At least are far as diverse and smart dramas. From all the inner stuff in development I am reading and deals I know going down, it just amazes me how they hit it out of the park all the time. What's also interesting is most of their execs are the same for 10+ years. Anyway... Thought I'd change the narrative of this chain.

If we don’t look. This thread will die. I am happy for that. The topic has run its course.

We are artists here. Oe people trying to help artists. Let’s keep it positive. Here’s a challenge. Any questions I can answer about the business someone wants brutally candid feedback on?

@David Rorie - again, people are confusing NOTES with $50 COVERAGE. You're right - what one $50 script reader for some rando coverage company thinks, doesnt matter. Your success or failure means nothing to them. They dont even know who you are and vice versa. But NOTES, given by a professional consultant who not only knows you, knows your intentions, but whose success and business depends upon the success of their writers and good word of mouth... and who gives HOURS or pages and pages of notes and suggestions because they have the experience to do so... those notes are worth the money. And theyre not a scam. And tbh, if you think notes - as a general concept or necessity - are a scam, then either youve never gotten good notes, or youre a bad writer who thinks all notes pointing to that fact must be incorrect.

Ilan, Stage32 differentiates and makes a blanket distincition, I think, between pitching to a company vs. pitching to an individual, it feels like a disclaimer or something, not sure what to make of it, not too worried about it, but it would be nice to know what the distinction is and why Stage32 doesn't facilitate pitches to companies (as I interpreted the fine print). Thanks

Dan G, I don’t want to delete it for a few reasons.

It wasn’t published by mistake and I am not embarrassed by content.

I don’t want some people to think that they have had a victory by just being a nasty person.

I don’t know if people know this. Google indexes this thread. So I want people on the internet to find this thread and understand my position on this.

Finally, this is going to be part of historic archive of Stage32. Some person in the future may find this debate enlightening.

Just lean into what helps you improve your craft and keeps you motivated. I know writers who've given up on their dream because they couldn't handle getting notes and I know writers who've sold scripts off the back of implementing notes.

When I was in the depths of my depression, I knew full well that I couldn't stomach any form of direct criticism of my work so I stayed away from anything I knew would be too hard to take and focused on areas that talked about craft. Now I get notes from co-producers, execs, cast members, sales agents, distributors, and reviewers without really batting an eye.

As ever, do your freaking due-diligence and try to find people on your own wavelength.

Jay, Stage 32 cares about a lot of things but the three pillars are COMMUNITY COMMUNITY and COMMUNITY. We are not a production company. More of a social network minus the toxicity of twitter or facebook and ad free. We also have a marketplace for people the learn both free education and next levels classes and opportunities for writers and others to better their craft. If someone you hire or consult with reads a spec and LOVES it I am sure they it or can direct you to the next level of potentially wanting to engage and people have been found and discovered on our platform, but these people are contracted by us and we work closely with these top agents and managers and execs, but non of them should ever feel obligated to help facilitate that connection. We are not an agency or management company. We are here to help artists and creatives connect and expand their base of contacts and learn and find opportunities but we have never been intended to be employers of links to it. Otherwise we'd have the near 1 million people on this platform expecting the same thing. As much as I would like to say every writer on this chain is great, statistically I would say in 10 scripts that are random and not from "know writers" that get discovered or found by tastemakers, I have generally read hundreds of "new voices" or undiscovered voices and I'd say the ratio of success rate is 10% at best. The people working "in the business" see everything so their level of expectation is higher for "good stuff" then you'd think. BUT DO NOT GIVE UP. Take more classes. Learn how to be a better writer. Find your voice. Keep writing, take a class, get coverage, do everything you can to get better or be found. You have to be snappy until someone is scary for you.

Thanks Ilan, that was my basic understanding, so the reason that we pitch to individuals and not companies is not pragmatically significant, it's more of a way to legally structure things, so that Stage32 is not legally an agent or manager.

Correct otherwise it would be a conflict of interest for us. Good luck to you

Sorry to hear about , Charlie. Your opinion is spot on and one I shared that the consultation industry is just that, an industry. Its goal is returning clients, by extension not success. I totally agree that notes are an education process. My partner and I use them as a sounding. For example, we may feel a certain script aspect isn't quite working. If this is confirmed by groups from people whose sensibility we trust, we know what needs to be done. To be clear, I'm not against script feedback. It just has to be viewed in the proper context.

Can some times notes from the same team are not as candid. Paying for notes from a pro or two can give more candid feedback. Inmo

Craig - would you delete this thread - please. Thanx.

Interesting video, Craig, and you make some good points in it.

@ilan from your experience, why would a writer (repped or have a concept in dev/production) go outside his/her ppl and go out of pocket/pay for notes from a "pro"?

@DanMaxx I have at least a dozen rep'd clients who come to me for notes before they send it to their reps to make sure its good enough or make sure certsin notes were addressed. Managers dont always have time to read every shit draft. And especially if its a client who got their manager thru my connection. You find the people that connect with your voice or understand what youre going for, and you stick with em. Whether they are reps, consultants, etc.

I've been privy to some of the consultancy notes sent to the big studios who seem to have no qualms soliciting outside opinions on projects that are in development.

Most of those notes were outside the box objective thoughts, often considering the perspective of the target audience above all else.

I've spoken before about how our sales agent had a high calibre reader provide some notes on our first film and they weren't points like "I don't like this and I don't like that" and they certainly weren't notes that would transform the script dramatically. They were however considerations that addressed the global marketplace and where some more detail could be added. They moved the needle a little and that always has value.

Fear of notes is a dance that requires both parties to participate in. Yes, a lot of feedback you'll get from all sources will be garbage but, if that manages to derail your vision or instil fear, that's on you for not having the strength and confidence to cast what you don't agree with aside. Strong direction and leadership as a creative is critical, even within just your own mind as a sole writer churning out specs. There may come a time that you're standing in the middle of a set in the desert heat during a long day's shoot and you're getting notes on the fly from your cast and crew shortly before a scene starts shooting - that's where you really need to be well practiced in balancing conviction, consideration, and compromise while always being there to defend the story above all else.

Filmmaking making isn't just about trying to master your craft, it's also about being the best collaborator you can be.

Cj, you didnt pay for notes out of your pocket, right? and I am guessing your notes are development/production notes, versus notes to submit for a read.

Yeah, these were movie making notes from a business partner, not "please buy this spec script that's now effectively been ghostwritten by four separate consultants" notes.

Yes Dan. 100%.