Jeff Kraus's Lounge Discussions

@Kerry Douglas Dye I understand where you're coming from. I ask this question because over the last couple of years, I have written 10 drafts. The story is essentially the same, but I've altered significant scenes, deleted dialog, and added character development. I've even had some very close friends look over it. I am about at the point where I feel that any changes I make are small. Before I send my work out to other people, I want it protected.

@D Marcus I am not a WGA. However, I plan on joining. Copyright first.

The US copyright office, allows you to put your new work , such as a script that is being attached to a copyrighted treatment, basically in the same "copyrighted" package. When you are in the menu for the copyright, it asks you if it is being attached to another body of work you have previously registered. That's the way I would do all, and any significant updates. (And also with the WGA). Will cost you less than $100 to protect your work at both places.

Having spoken with IP attorneys about this, they said that it is "the execution of your concept" (not the concept itself) that the copyright protects... and that qualitative AND quantitative proof must be presented (thus, you always want a paper trail... digital emails included). However, the copyright does give you the opportunity for punitive damages to be awarded (big money), and it lasts for all your life and (I believe) 70 years afterwards too (for your heirs). The WGA listing only lasts 5 years and must then be re-registered.

One more thing about a provable paper-trail should you sue: this is what cloud-storage of emails is all about. I have a client who tends to clean (i.e. delete) a lot of our old email correspondence... and then kicks themself when an old email I know I sent them contains exactly what they now need. Sometimes, I'm pleasantly surprised that I save 99.9% of my relevant emails in dedicated folders (that just sit there on "the cloud") as they can really come to the rescue when you least expect needin' 'em. Hey, there's a great future movie title that will probably show up in theaters near you soon: "The Cloud Kinda like "The Blob" and "The Fog" from so long ago. ;-)

@Kevin, thanks for the link! Although I'm sure Sorkin's writers' room is unique. I wonder if they have a test for how fast you can write a brilliant two-page monologue? Answer - not as fast as Sorkin. Agree that when hiring personality is half the battle. Even when we hire at my day job, I look for someone who's a good writer, but who is also sane. No one needs more drama than is already inherent in most workplaces. On a related note, I was fortunate enough to be at the AFF in 2012 and heard Marti Noxon (one of my personal fave writers) discuss writing for TV and features. She said that coming from a dysfunctional family is the best prep for working in a writers' room, especially if you were the "referee/caretaker." At least I qualify on this point;) Living in LA makes it much easier to compete for work. But I agree that there's no need to put a for sale sign outside your house until you have a rep who tells you it's time. Or you sell a pilot or get hired as a staff writer or sell a feature. Anything's possible. At least that's what I tell myself;)

@Mitchell - Yes, agreed, being good in a writers' room isn't necessarily just about being likable, but being collaborative and respectful. If you're pleasant and easy to get along with, that's a plus too. @Diane - re: the writers' room being like a dysfunctional family.... hahaha

this is the topic that gets me depressed the most. there's nothing of an industry in austalia and really the same shit gets made over and over again by the same people. and of course it's the shit I don't do. feeling really screwed lately. well maybe ahahahaha i'll get lucky. ahahahah and i'll be different. bwahahahaha

Read my article about this topic: http://scriptcat.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/do-you-need-to-live-in-hollywo...

" same shit gets made over and over again by the same people. " - HA, sounds like Hollywood!

Lina, look up "poorman's copyright". That is the method you were told is the best and most inexpensive way to copyright. It will not hold up in court. It's too easy to fake. Registering the copyright is so inexpensive I don't understand why there is so much resistance to doing it. Niraj, the WGA registration in not in any way registering the copyright. Read what Bill Martell wrote. WGA registration will not help you in any legal matters pertaining to copyright. The WGA gladly takes your money but they will not help you if there is a legal issue.

Chain of title has nothing to do with sharing with your very best friends. Diary entries, skype chat or emails are not what studios are looking for. A simple, inexpensive copyright registration is what they need. Alle, who is an expert witness in several country's, knows defending a copyright lawsuit can be very costly. I'm sure her expert testimony and travel and lodging are not cheap. Hiring a lawyer is not cheap. I detect a little bias in her advice. Where she and I agree; look up the copyright act. Yes, copyright is automatic in many countries in the world - US and UK included. But without registering that copyright a lawsuit can be complicated and costly. The writer will need to pay to get affidavits and hire an expert witness like Alle to defend a copyright lawsuit. If a writer never needs to defend copyright infringement they save that small fee. If they DO need to defend copyright infringement there are people like Alle who will gladly offer their services for a fee.

But chain of title starts somewhere. You clearly think registering the copyright is not only not needed, it's something for writers to avoid. You continuously use WAG as an example. I don't know what that is. Looked is up - can't find anything. It's always good to get different points of view. I'm a TV producer and writer, Alle is an expert witness in many country's in copyright law. I don't quite understand why she is so against registering the copyright with the LOC. As an expert witness in many country's in copyright law I would think a copyright infringement lawsuit is made much more simple when the writer has an official registration. However, if writers want to save the money by using “poormans copyright” as Lina suggests or by a diary entry or skype chat or email record as Alle suggests , then by all means use those methods. I am not as against them as Alle is against official registration. And she is the expert in copyright law. The odds are a writer will never have to defend a copyright infringement lawsuit so saving the small fee may be playing the odds.

there seems to be a lot of crossed wires when this argument comes up. one person says one thing and they think it means something else and won't concede and it goes on. if people actually stopped and took to the time to read what people are saying instead of transferring their own thoughts or insecurities then you'll find people mostly agree anyway. when you argue with someone who says that you do not need to pay to copyright your work you are arguing against fact. whether someone does pay or not is an extra precaution that's up to the individual. I won't be paying because I feel plenty secure and I have plenty of proof on my idea and i can't afford a fucking lawyer anyway. Please do think about that last part. Can you afford a lawyer anyway?

jesus I didn't mean you marcus. read my first sentence.

Yes, a Treatment is essentially a short story and can be from just a few pages to 60 pages or more. The average treatment works out to about 25 - 30 pages in length. The point here is to do whatever it takes to get the story down as best you can. The requirements are that it must be written in straightforward prose, in the present tense, with as much detail as you are capable of imagining. Don’t hold anything back. This is an important time in the process to write it all out. Its purpose is to help you get all of your ideas out of your head and onto paper. It is intended as a focusing tool for your eyes only and need never be shown to anyone else – nor should it be because this document has a value that a simple idea does not and can be registered and copyrighted by you. If someone asks you to send them your treatment - be ware. You will have provided them everything, but the dialogue and actual scene breakdowns. Again, the number of pages will depend upon your imagination and story skills. This is an important preparation for you because it will be the last time you will have the luxury of using so many words. The more complete this document - the easier it will be for you to write your screenplay.

I don't know that people want to read a thirty page treatment. i've seen four page ones that covered the story nicely. if you're condensing your story it should be under ten pages. I wouldn't go past five to be honest. you don't have to explain every scene. you can condense them too.

Thanks for the feedback folks. This is my second treatment. The first one I wrote, included the log line, synopsis, character notes, and then the actual story outline. All of those elements added up to 7 pages single-spaced. This new one I am working on is 10 pages (2 of which are just personal notes). Curious, can/should the treatment be used as a method to sell a script idea for a production company? I've read articles where people pitch ideas and they become movies. Note: I have written a full-length script too.

A treatment is part of a step deal, so usually the producer who hired you will tell you what length they want. I've had anything from five pages to thirty five required by my contracts. If you are writing a treatment for yourself, it's whatever you want. No one buys treatments... only finished, rewritten, polished screenplays. (even then, most scripts are "job applications" for assignments... where those step deals come into play).

Thanks for the information Will. Much appreciated.

I am interested

Good luck Jd

Welcome, JD. We love students around here. Happy to give those who are still in school the opportunity to make network connections now that can assist them once they graduate. Best of luck with all your endeavors.